As we move from childhood to adulthood, we place countless rules and restrictions on ourselves, especially with regard to career.
Beginning with an education system that TED speaker Sir Ken Robinson has long argued is almost designed to kill creativity, we quite quickly accept and conform to narrow definitions of our own perspectives, skills and ability to contribute – definitions that shape our entire careers and the way we’re perceived by others.
“He’s a scientist”; “she’s a creative”, and so on.
By her own admission Maria Ingold, also a TED speaker and former FilmFlex Movies CTO, grew up “off-grid”. This could be why she simply wasn’t aware of the tiresome convention for narrowing one’s professional field and specialising in something at the expense of almost everything else.
Maria studied both computer science and fine art at university. She’s worked in visual technology for some of the largest tech companies in the world, starting her career as an IBM programmer. Yet she’s also a BAFTA judge and advisor, an artist and an occasional actress.
Now, as founder and CEO of strategic and technical innovation consultancy Mireality, Maria talks about the difference between innovating vertically – which she says is what most of us do – and innovating laterally, to drive true revolutionary thinking.
She believes she owes her worldview and perspective to her father – a decorated rocket scientist who also studied geology, anthropology, physics, mathematics, linguistics and chemistry.
“He could do solar because he understood electricity; he pretty much invented the in-ear thermometer and studied seven languages, six of which he still speaks fluently,” according to Maria.
Living in a self-built home in the desert in New Mexico Maria’s father – a man who worked on Apollo 13, improving the efficiency of the landing rockets from 200 miles to 3 miles and saving the lives of the astronauts in the process – taught her everything.
She learned to help him fix cars – something that would come in handy on a recent road-trip the pair took from New Mexico to LA to meet Elon Musk at SpaceX.
Maria also learned to deal with the sexism, sexual harassment, bullying and gender pay gap that she would face as she shot to the top of the tech industry. “I always had to work hard to get respect,” she says, “even though I was very good at my job.”
“It never put me off, it just made me more determined. My approach is to be there and be a role model to other women and girls rather than talking about it all of the time.”
In a world that’s changing fast in so many ways, schools are placing creativity, critical thinking and risk-taking at the top of their curriculum priorities in a bid to equip our children for a future world and economy that is hard to imagine.
With that future in mind, as well as the skills that we’ll need to thrive within it, it feels likely that the skill Maria shares with her father Norm – the ability to see, work and innovate laterally across disciplines – will be essential.
RebelTalk #4: Think way outside the box.
Mark Choueke is host of RebelTalk and co-founder of Rebeltech
- Watch Maria’s Tedx talk: Innovating the Impossible
- The day my dad met Elon Musk
- Read Mark’s blog on how schools teach risk-taking as essential life skill for kids
- Connect with Maria on Twitter, LinkedIn or by visiting her website
RebelTalk is hosted by Mark Choueke, co-hosted by Nicole Lyons and produced by Meg Wright.
Episodes are recorded and engineered by Hard Six Audio.
Special thanks to Dillan Gandhi Media and Spiritland Studio.
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MC Mark Choueke
MI Maria Ingold
NL Nicole Lyons
MC This episode of RebelTalk is brought to you by Rebeltech, human stories for start-ups.
MI I’ve always said that what drives you is the passion, what enables you is the technology. I think you need to learn from a young age, as you say, that the being brave is that there isn’t a failure, there’s only feedback.
MC Hello and welcome to RebelTalk. If you’re a first-time listener, this is a podcast that celebrates rebels across every walk of life. Each episode, we talk to changers and troublemakers whose predilection for bending rules drives progress, change, and transformation. I’m your host, Mark Choueke, and today, I’m joined by Maria Ingold, the strategic and technical innovator, TED Talker, and daughter of a rocket scientist. Maria was the first student ever at the University of New Mexico to study both computer science and fine art.
Her career working in visual technology has taken her to the very top positions in some of the world’s biggest and most advanced technology companies. She’s a BAFTA judge, an artist, and occasionally an actress. I’m occasionally an actor. We’ll get on to that. Maria, thanks for joining me. You once said, it’s good to be a little unknown, it keeps people on their toes. You know what’s coming, don’t you? What don’t we know about you, or who or what intimidates you, when do you feel uncomfortable?
MI Oh, gosh.
MC Is there something you’re intimidated by?
MI I think the point is, is that if you’re not feeling a little uncomfortable, then you’re not outside of your comfort zone. For the most part, I tend to always do things in which I don’t feel comfortable, because I haven’t pushed myself otherwise. When I was building the video-on-demand movie service for Virgin Cable, it was back in 2007, and nobody had done it before, and I certainly hadn’t either. I was a little bit afraid because there was so much complexity to all of this and it had to be successful. I went, doing something called [non-English], in Spain, which is cliff-jumping.
MC You actually did throw yourself off a cliff?
MI I genuinely threw myself off a cliff. I thought, what…?
MC Good, because I was going to make a joke and say, not literally, but you actually did?
MI Yes. I thought, what two things am I most afraid of, and I thought, well, heights and water. And I hiked up to the top of a canyon and then jumped off cliffs into pools of water and abseiled down through waterfalls until I got to the end. And I genuinely did almost kill myself with a leap, but I didn’t die, and I went on to build the project, and I’m less afraid of heights and water now. I think find something else that scares you more if something scares you, and go do that, and then come back to the thing that scared you and it won’t scare you anymore.
MC You and I have a shared experience with a different outcome. On a stag weekend party some years ago, I also threw myself off a cliff, into the sea, the biggest water there is in the world, and at the moment I did, I was so scared of doing it that I insisted to the instructor that was with a group of us, a lot of boys that are very close to me, that I be first, to make sure I actually got it done, I didn’t wuss out.
Jumped into the sea. The weather changed, there was a storm. I got sucked down under. Didn’t appear for three or four minutes at the time, and every time I came up gasping for breath and could see air, I could see my friends standing on a cliff, rather uncomfortably shuffling as they watched what they thought was the end of me. And I could actually hear my friend, Gideon, saying, so, yes, lads, what’s for dinner tonight, is it barbeque? It was that uncomfortable to watch me struggle.
But yes, I got out alive. The difference is I didn’t then go and build a world-class technology for Virgin Cable. Maria, you’ve taken your life cues from a man who studied, among other things, geology, anthropology, physics, maths, linguistics, and chemistry. He pretty much invented the in-ear thermometer, if I understand your blog correctly, and studied seven languages, six of which he still speaks fluently.
But it’s led you to a theory and a perspective on the world around lateral thinking and horizontal innovation, on diversity of perspective and how we make the impossible possible. Is that something that the future requires of all of us, is that how our brains are going to need to work if we’re to thrive in the years to come?
MI It’s actually quite funny because that’s how our brains work as children already, it’s just our education system industry, everything takes us away from that. As kids, we have an amazing imagination, and we have this curiosity and wonder about everything, and with the imagination, you combine things that no one has ever thought of combining before, and they make complete and total sense to you as a kid.
But as an adult, people say, oh, you’ve got to focus on this specific topic or you’ve got to focus on STEM – science, technology, engineering, and maths – and, oh, by the way, your music, well, that’s a hobby. And what I’m suggesting is that we change that, is that we say, embrace all of a person, because what we’re doing is essentially looking at vertical innovation, and that leads to evolution.
But when you look at lateral innovation, that’s where you start getting revolution, and when you start getting three-dimensional innovation, that’s when you take all of the different things that are in your brain and combine them to create new things.
MC How have you managed to retain this ability to think like you did when we were kids?
MI Oh, gosh.
MC Should I be putting my five-year-old in a room right now and go, oh, come on, ideate, ideate while you’ve got it, Solomon?! How did you manage to?
MI I think part of it is I grew up and became an adult but I never stopped the curiosity and wonder, and I always look at the world through those eyes. I’m always like, well, what happens if we do this? And I’m so thrilled to be on RebelTalk because I am definitely a rebel, I don’t do what people tell me to do.
MC What are you a rebel of? When we invited you on the show, it started from the seed of computer science and fine art.
MC I’ve worked on both sides but always been categorised in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. You seem to have revelled in it and made a TED Talker, speaker, blogger, consultant career out of it.
MI Of course with my dad, I was raised that this was perfectly normal, and my dad was the one real constant in my whole life. I got to see him operate all the time and I’d see him being a rocket scientist. I’d go out and I’d see the sled [?] test back in the old days when you still could, and I’d watch him build his cabin, and I’d hear him speak all of his different languages and do all the things that he did, and I just thought, well, everybody did that, that that was a normal thing. No one ever told me I couldn’t.
When I was two, that’s my first memory of doing art, drawing a face. I always knew that I loved art, but because my father was a scientist, I thought, well, it’s not a natural thing but let me learn about technology, because I thought, well, I’ll combine this into computer graphics, into this new world. And I went to university and I studied both computer science and fine art, and I was the first person to do so, but nobody ever told me that I couldn’t.
MC What happens to you when somebody tells you that you can’t? Do you get extremely violent or… What happens to you as a rebel when somebody says, actually that’s not the way we do things, that’s not the way the world works, you’re going to have to choose?
MI I usually ask why, why are we still doing it this way, what do you really want to achieve, and help people look at why maybe the way that they’re doing things right now is stopping them from actually achieving their goals because they’re not embracing more than just a narrow view of the world.
MC Anybody who’s checked you out online and either heard your TED Talks or read your blog post on Huffington Post… And, by the way, if you haven’t heard of Maria Ingold, please do check her out online, the stories that you’ll come across are quite unbelievable, and here’s one of them. Anyone who has got to know you in the past will know about your love and respect for your father. A couple of years ago, you wrote a letter to Elon Musk, ahead of Father’s Day, to present your father with a very special opportunity. Tell us about that.
MI I kept seeing articles by some guy named Elon Musk, and it was just things he was doing around solar and around electric cars and around rockets, and I suddenly went, this guy sounds like my dad; they have to meet. And I wrote a public letter called Father’s Day for Rocket Scientists, to Elon Musk. And within 24 hours, I had a yes from Elon to meet up with my father, and we scheduled a date for that August. And I told Dad. He was a little blown away by it.
And he’s like, but I don’t want to fly out there, he’s like, I want to drive my pickup truck from New Mexico. We made the whole thing into a road trip. It was just a wonderful father-daughter week road trip across the desert, arriving in L.A. at sunset. Then the next day we went over to SpaceX. And it was quite surreal. My father was definitely star-struck by Elon Musk, but he was galaxy-struck by SpaceX, because he’s seen so many rocket facilities in his time, and he said to them, this is the best rocket facility I’ve ever seen. He was absolutely blown away. It was just magic.
MC I’ve got my own top-ten list of rocket facilities, but this is not about me, this is about your dad. What were some of the highlights of the day? Is Elon Musk as charismatic as you need him to be?
MI Elon was incredibly busy. He came out, he was very lively, very excited about everything that was going on. And my dad and he talked a little bit about some of the things that had gone wrong in the past that my father had seen go wrong in rocketry, and this was just around the time when the rocket had exploded, and the issue was with bolts. And they were talking a little bit about that and just how do we think about…
Again, it’s going back to those first-principles thinking: how do you make sure that all of those pieces are going to work but at the same time knowing that a few rockets are actually going to blow up? It’s failure isn’t… Feedback not failure. It was really interesting to watch them talk about all of that, and then because we were talking in the lobby, and then to walk in the doors into SpaceX, which of course you’ve got Skynet on one side and you’ve got Terminators on the other side, and then it opens up into this massive space with rockets, of course, and 3D printers who are printing titanium parts for it, and it’s just amazing.
MC And did your dad find that there was stuff to latch onto, that he could still contribute to, talk about? I’m not being facetious here, but understand has rocket science evolved so much that it was new to your father or were there still conversations to have?
MI Yes, he clearly understood everything that they were doing, but I think he was impressed by things, some of the new technology like 3D printing parts. They had a guy who did the carbon fibre on the rockets: yes, we’ve got this guy who makes sure that everything’s really smooth and he knows that this is a bit where there could be a problem, and there’s a little chalk circle there and get that sorted out. And it’s just amazing to go into. And we’re in there and there are people walking around in Occupy Mars T-shirts, and my dad’s like, I want this.
MC The T-shirt?
MI The T-shirts. He just loved the whole thing. I think he just felt it’s so vibrant, and I think that he really latched onto that because that’s how he feels about rocket science.
MC What was it like for you as a daughter watching him have the day of his life?
MI I’m just so proud of him, and clearly he’s pretty proud of me, too. It was just fun. I think he was in shock for some of it. I was probably a little bit more chill than he was, but he thought it was amazing.
MC Your dad’s second-grade teacher said he’d never amount to anything because he took longer than all the other students to do anything, and you say, he took longer because he was thinking about what he was doing rather than just doing because he’d been told to. Even at a young age, your dad was laterally innovating?
MI He didn’t want to just accept something at face value, and I think that that’s still very true. Just because somebody tells you something, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t question it and understand it, and I think if we did that a lot more, whether it’s personally or professionally, we’d probably get a little further.
MC Did your dad ever go back to the second-grade teacher and write her a screw-you or…?
MI No, if only I knew who the second-grade teacher was, I would have.
MC Now that we have that second-grade teacher here, come into the studio! No, we’re not that far ahead of ourselves as a podcast. You promised Elon Musk your dad would change his life. Did he change Elon Musk’s life? You promised in a letter to him, come and meet my dad, he’ll change your life. Was that just good pitching?
MI It was probably good pitching. I don’t know that they had quite a long enough conversation to be able to change his life completely, but if my dad was allowed to be part of SpaceX, e.g., on a regular or consulting basis, then I have no doubt that he would.
MC Elon, give us a call. Listen, let’s go back to you now, because I’m interested in your childhood. From the blogs that we’ve read, you grew up – your description – off-grid, and your dad built your place down in New Mexico with his bare hands and you grew up, part of your childhood was spent at military bases. And he seems to have shaped your world view in a way I can only hope to do for my young children. What was he like when you were a kid? What is a rocket scientist like at the weekend when he’s off duty?
MI Just to clarify a bit, he worked on the military base, but we didn’t live there, we lived in the small town nearby. And then when I was about 11 to 13, we moved up to the mountains to live in the cabin that he’d been working on, and that was off-grid and that was actually before he’d put in all the solar. I was doing my homework by kerosene lamps, we had an outhouse, but we had views of 120 miles from the roof, and it was on the edge of the National Forest, and we’d have all sorts of wild creatures coming through, some that could kill you, and it was a fantastic experience at the time.
But I think about the time I hit 13, I started going, well, why am I not like other kids? You start feeling the peer pressure at about that age.
MC Were teenage years hard for that, as in, why am I not like other kids? And, by the way, I guess that’s the same for most of us, right?
MI I think teenage years are hard for anyone. I was a bit of a punk/new waver in a very small town in New Mexico. That was my way of rebelling against trying to be like everybody else. But Dad at the weekend, Dad’d be working on his old cars, he’d be working on the cabin. He wasn’t trying to exclude me because I was a girl, he would just go like, hey, I’m doing this, want to learn about what I’m doing? And I completely recommend that for all parents, is if you love something, share it with your kids, regardless of if they’re boys or girls.
And he always did that with me. I got to learn. And I have this thing for power tools because of just the osmosis of being around them, and I somehow know, I’m like, oh, I need a vice-grip for that or I need a jigsaw for that, and I just somehow know what the tools are that I need to be able to create something. Growing up around that was wonderful, but he was always tinkering with things.
But I tease him a little bit. I’m a finisher, and I tease my dad that he’s a starter but not a finisher, because he now has 17 antique cars, he’s got the cabin which is massive, a barn which he built, and then four storerooms on top of that, another house, and a garage, full of things that he’s working on. He’s now starting to finish the old 1930 V16 Cadillac, which is a lot of fun and I can’t wait till that’s done.
MC Do you think there’s a road trip in it as soon as it’s done?
MI I hope so.
MC Another great father-daughter road trip. Is he well, your dad?
MI Yes. My dad’s 83 and he’s still a rocket scientist. He’s still climbing on the roof of the barn and…
MC Where’s he living?
MI New Mexico.
MC He’s still there? You live here?
MI Yes, but I go back, and he’s coming over in a couple of weeks, and I’m very, very excited. My dad, back when he was brought back, they asked him if he could help them solve some problems, and he figured out how to improve the accuracy of a single component by 1,400% using a printout, a ruler, and a calculator. And that’s because he was applying those old principles. They used to print out on that old green-and-white sprocket paper long printouts and do the walking of the graph and stuff, and he always says the mind is an image-processing beast.
And this again is using that three-dimensional thinking. It’s taking all of the things that you’ve learnt and using that part of the brain to think about things. In a way, rather than just saying, here are some statistics and here are some numbers, it’s, here’s an image, and you look at it and you go, well, that looks wrong, that looks out of place, and you start drilling into that more and that’s where you start finding out things.
MC And what do you do with this blessed and rare perspective? Because you’ve grown up with these cues, you’re now a consultant, you see the world differently from most of your peers, which puts you in a privileged position, but then after working your way up from multimedia programmer at IBM to the position of, say, CTO for the Disney/Sony joint venture FilmFlex Movies, you’re now a consultant, what are you able to help your clients with if they can’t see the world the same way you can?
How are you able to enable them? What can you leave them with if they don’t have your world view and perspective? That must be quite a difficult challenge or…?
MI Oh, it’s fun, I really enjoy it. Again, I approach everything with that curiosity and wonder. I ask a lot of questions about what they want, what they already know, what works, what doesn’t work, and then I start finding solutions that they haven’t thought of. In one case recently I worked with a client and I solved something in one-thirteenth of the time that the previous time said was impossible. All the previous research…
MC You couldn’t just leave it at a simple tenth of the time, could you, had to be accurate?
MI No, I can be fairly precise, but I can also be very abstract.
MC This is the daughter of somebody who improved the efficiency of landing rockets from 200 miles to three miles to save lives of astronauts. Tell me about the career. You’ve led the world to get us to where we are on video-on-demand; is that correct?
MC I don’t know how much you implicitly or explicitly do campaign or encourage or talk about being a senior and super successful woman in STEM, but where I’ve come from through my years in tech, it was a real issue, that everybody knew they needed to get behind and needed to work up and talk about and give opportunities to. Where are we at the moment? Is this something that’s still very much live in our industry?
MI Unfortunately yes. There’s still sexism, there’s still sexual harassment, there’s still bullying, and there’s still the gender pay gap, and all of those things are things we still have to address. I’ve always had to work very hard to have respect, and that’s even though I’m very, very good at what I do, it’s still dealing with the boys’ club that’s been there.
But I haven’t let that put me off. If anything, it just makes me more determined to keep going for myself and for others, for all the girls and women who follow me, to show what can be done and to change things by being there and being the role model, rather than necessarily going out and talking about it all the time.
MC There’s a bunch of us that haven’t quit on this yet.
MI What’s been important for me is over the 25 years of my career, I’ve realised, especially with running my company, that my values are integrity, honesty, passion, and fun, because if you don’t have the integrity and the honesty, then you end up with those types of bullies that nobody does anything about, and if you don’t love what you’re doing, why the hell are you doing it? You must love what you’re doing and must make it fun, and if you can make it that way for everyone, then what a great world it would be.
It’s strange, because at the time that I went to university in 1986 and did computer science and fine art, there were 40% of us in computer science who were women; nobody had told us that we couldn’t do it. And now I’m a little worried that we have so much conversation about all of the issues, if that’s putting people off, but at the same time, we need to resolve all of that as well, which is why I think that’s another set of discussions we have to all have in parallel at the same time as driving that curiosity and passion for whatever you love as a child.
And then giving them the technical tools so that that world just seems natural, rather than one that you think of avoiding when you turn 15 and you think, oh, I’ll go away from it, it’s just part of your life, that there is nothing… And if kids, boys and girls, are doing this, at four, hopefully it just seems natural that everybody’s working with technology and that it’s not an issue, that gender isn’t an issue, and in the meantime, hopefully we can address everything else.
MC It’s funny. One of the thoughts that I had when researching you and figuring out what we were going to talk about today was I kept being pulled back to the experience I had last summer looking for my son’s first school. And we all take a great interest in school and education as soon as… Everybody’s got an interest in education because we were all at school. We all have an experience. But as soon as you start trying to put your kids into the system, the fear and drive and all the motivations you feel are really powerful.
How do I give this kid, who relies on us to do so, the best opportunity for a world that we don’t know? It’s 20 years hence. He’s going to be out in the world working in an economy that I’ve never seen the like of with jobs that are yet to be created. How on earth do you prepare somebody for that in the best way possible? And your thoughts go back to the school education you had, with that wouldn’t have done, my education simply wouldn’t have done today let alone for the future.
But I was delighted. We found a school for my boy whose entire ethos is about a world built on kindness, creativity, critical thinking, some computer science in there, even at age four.
MC And surprisingly, and I wrote a blog on this about three months ago, on taking risks, calculated risk, and it’s actually written down within the ethos of the school to teach these kids to take risks in order not for them to win or lose but to make them brave. And we listen to the stuff coming out in the school, we take part in all the PTA stuff, but that just feels like giving this kid the best shot. If we don’t know what the world’s going to look like, this is the school system’s latest best bet for preparing our kids for an unknown future.
MI It sounds great.
MC Is that something you see across the board or is there still a problem where we’re teaching our kids not be creative?
MI I think that’s a wonderful school and the first I’ve ever heard of something like that at that age group, and I think that’s wonderful, it’s the kind of thing that I’ve been encouraging people to do. I think you need to learn from a young age, as you say, that the being brave is that there isn’t a failure, there’s only feedback, and that you need to take risks but you need to know how to calculate the risk as well and understand, is it going to kill you or is it something that you keep mistakes until you get fantastically good at something.
And starting computing quite early, I think that’s great, because if you bring it in as something that seems natural: hey, if you’re into music, here, you can do something with technology in music; or if you’re kinaesthetic and you could 3D-print something; or if you’re quite visual, there are so many different video games, VR, all sorts of things that you could learn to play with as a kid that make it seem like a natural way to learn, rather than sitting down and going, well, here’s some code, and here, write this thing you’re not interested in. It’s a way of combining those passions.
And I’ve always said that what drives you is the passion, what enables you is the technology. It’s just a tool, and if we teach it as a tool to help enable the things that kids love and that they’re curious about and everything already, we’ll actually get more kids into technology but we’ll get them in in a way that we’ve never thought of before. Einstein always said that the best scientists were artists as well, and that’s because he did a lot of his thinking in a way that wasn’t in mathematics, it was through music or through imagery.
And that’s a very different way of thinking, and problem-solving in your head is pulling all of these things together and saying, hey, it’s okay to learn everything about everything. You can have focusses, but if you’re going to focus strongly on something, then broaden it out as well by learning something else or just doing something unrelated or just allowing yourself to be curious about all the things you’re curious about.
MC Listen, we do a very quick-fire round here called 60-second Rebellion.
MC We’re going to test you out as a rebel. Advice to your 16-year-old self?
MI Trust your instincts always.
MC Your 16-year-old self’s advice to the grown-up you?
MI Don’t put up with any shit and always be yourself.
MC The most important single characteristic for any founder, entrepreneur?
MI You have to be completely optimistic about everything, because if you don’t believe that anything is possible, you will never try to make the impossible happen.
MC Maria, you’re given the power and money to solve one big global problem and one tiny, annoying, day-to-day, small problem; what big and small problem do you solve?
MI The big problem, I think, is around innovation, creating an education system that allows kids to think vertically and laterally and combine that in three-dimensional thinking, where we create an industry that has companies that we allow to think both vertically and laterally, and where we create not just additional revenue opportunities but where we’re also not just evolving but creating revolutionary stuff for the future.
MC What’s your day-to-day?
MI Oh, I just wish I had more time, but that’s not exactly a trivial thing. I think public transport is still a real thing to try to figure out.
MC What’s your tube line?
MI I’m on the Northern line. How do we find time to exercise more yet get around more quickly?
MC And, finally, what are you most excited about?
MI What am I most excited about? Life. Oh, my gosh, everything. The next thing that’s going to happen, whatever I’m going to do that I’ve never done before.
MC Fantastic. Maria Ingold, thank you so much for giving us your time. It’s been a pleasure to meet you.
MI Thank you very much.
MC Send our very best to Norm.
MI I will do indeed.
MC Ladies and gentlemen, Nicole Lyons, co-founder of Rebeltech, for post-match analysis.
MC Which, by the idea, we should totally credit at this point, it’s in the fourth episode, we stole this from James O’Brien’s unfiltered [?] podcast.
NL Thanks, James.
MC We really [unclear], James, we really liked it and unashamedly just nicked it. We haven’t even renamed it, it’s just exactly as he… What do you think? That was Maria Ingold.
NL One thing when I listened throughout the whole thing was the absence of any kind of siblings or her mum. I don’t know if that’s something that we know more about.
MC She says her dad is the person she talks about because he’s the constant. There were a lot of people that came and went in her life, some of whom inspired her and taught her a lot and some of whom inspired her and taught her a lot about who she didn’t want to be.
NL Something I couldn’t help, because you know when you’re talking to someone and you can’t help but put yourself in their position, and I thought of myself in hers, and your dad is doing all these great things, where actually everything he touches, he solves, he fixes problems left, right, and centre, he’s an absolute genius, and I thought, oh, how do you live up to that? There had to be a point in her life where that must have been a struggle, surely.
MC If the one figure in your life that inspires you to go and do is always on and always solving and always successful, what kind of pressure does that put upon you in school?
NL In school and just you want to… You’re really proud but at the same time thinking, oh, God, I need to live up to their expectations, surely.
MC That was post-match analysis with Mark Choueke, Nicole Lyons, and the shadow of James O’Brien. Thank you very much.
MC That’s all for this episode of RebelTalk. I’m your host, Mark Choueke. Thanks so much for joining us. My thanks also to our brilliant production team at Hard Six Audio, to Spiritland [?] in King’s Cross for the beautiful studio, and to my RebelTalk co-host, Nicole Lyons, and producer, Meg Wright. Until next time, up with the rebels.
NL You seem to have passed on your habit to me. I don’t know what’s going on. I’m now a tapper. Great.
MC And I’m getting your curly hair.
NL You wish you were getting my curly hair.